The man with the plan can not be banned
The beauty of the Internet is its decentralization. Information is difficult if not impossible to censor or keep secret for very long. In the Motored bike community there seems to be a philosophical rift that is as wide open as the Grand Canyon! My interest in motored bikes is as a hard core bicycle commuter not to be a motor cycle rider. I have some money and if I wanted to ride a motor cycle I would simply buy one. The engine and kit that I have chosen reflect this philosophy and is legal in just about all 50 US states. I am a cyclist first and a motored biker second yet the two have kind of merged when I ride that GEBE/Fisher bicycle. And bicycle it still is under Wisconsin law even with the motor and I want to keep it that way!
The way that I have chosen to power assist my bicycle is proven and safe and legal. Its engine is well under the states regulations yet it can do 30 mph on the flats with a good power assist. What more does a bicycle need to do? Augie has a plan of action for the motorized bicyclist and that plan is to cooperate with the authorities and follow their restrictions that keep our motorized bikes legally bicycles. Trust me we all want to remain as bicyclists in the legal sense otherwise you will have to purchase insurance and pay registration fees and have all kinds of additional headaches and expenses that we don't have right now.
Its time for the adults to take over the debate and provide some guidance to what the children are discussing.
Kevin
The way that I have chosen to power assist my bicycle is proven and safe and legal. Its engine is well under the states regulations yet it can do 30 mph on the flats with a good power assist. What more does a bicycle need to do? Augie has a plan of action for the motorized bicyclist and that plan is to cooperate with the authorities and follow their restrictions that keep our motorized bikes legally bicycles. Trust me we all want to remain as bicyclists in the legal sense otherwise you will have to purchase insurance and pay registration fees and have all kinds of additional headaches and expenses that we don't have right now.
Its time for the adults to take over the debate and provide some guidance to what the children are discussing.
Kevin
posted by KMB at
12:51 AM
12 Comments:
Information, even opinions are rarely if ever a reason to be banned no matter the context, outright hostility, insults and hypocritical personal attacks would be the obvious reasons.
These restrictions so lauded by Augi and yourself make very little sense to anyone with even the slightest mechanical aptitude, so it's of little surprise they're so often ignored by even those mature enough to otherwise be law abiding citizens. Speed limits are reasonable and fair, but to attempt to restrict a vehicle's ability (as not to be ABLE to exceed 20/30MPH) is simply ludicrous and can be violated by any motorized bicycle, including your much touted "Golden Eagle" by your own admission. Even limitations based on displacement are an example of the lawmaker's naivety, the vast differences between the various engines designs and quality making such meaningless. The 66cc "Happy Times" while technically illegal in some states haven't even a fraction of the power a "legal" 49cc Franco Morini engine has as a prime example.
So Augi and Kevin I ask of you this, instead of harshly judging anyone or anything whom doesn't fit within your amazingly narrow and inconsistent definition of what does or does not constitute a proper motorized bicycle, condemning anyone whom dares to exceed what you have decided to be enough despite the fact it may even be legal in their state, why not lobby for logical, practical, uniform and even enforceable laws?
Speed limits and maximum BHP, these are examples of fair and reasonable methods of regulation. All else is ignorance or preferential bias, even naught but an excuse to berate your fellow enthusiasts. If you're truly interested in the practical application of the vehicle and it's legal preservation, lobbying for consistent and logical lawmaking would be the priority, instead you seem far more interested in slandering and insulting it's proponents for your own self gratification.
If nothing else it's a grave tactical error, alienating those that would otherwise be stout supporters of the cause. The broad generalities of your concerns I find little to disagree with yet the specifics of your stated arguments are rife with logical fallacies, personal bias, even megalomania. While you've valid points, your methodology is seriously flawed as you've targeted the wrong side of the issue.
"Its time for the adults to take over the debate and provide some guidance to what the children are discussing."
There's a difference between debating and orating. Referring to yourselves as "adults", dismissing those that would disagree as "children", even taking it upon yourselves as the only ones able to "provide guidance" are exactly the reasons so few care to listen to what you have to say.
You may wish to tout yourselves as martyrs - but all I've seen here is petulant hate speech and brand fanaticism.
anon...that was lucid and civil, you should have named yourself. ponder that i (i won't speak for kevin here) may be RE-acting, and should not be held solely accountable for the rift. when the forum i had nurtured showed me it no longer had the pride-of-conviction that set it apart from the copycat, and when logic failed, all i was left with was anger. the beauty of a personal site is you can express that anger, and the other beauty is that you don't have to care about being popular for revenue's sake.
was a time, i was an outspoken advocate of organization and standardization, and i had a great platform from which to speak. but, both seller & consumer alike have overshadowed whatever logic there may be behind my reasoning. and the platform has turned tail on the matter also.
i had nothing to do with the restrictions on MB's, they were already in play. "state's rights" make it literally impossible for us to achieve an across-the-board set of laws.
all that's left is individual responsibility for the greater good of the group.
like every other aspect of our society, MB'ing is being eroded by a lack of group ethics...the individual isn't paying attention...the greater good seems not worth belaying the instant gratification our society has decided to live for.
simply put, motor-assisted bicycles are one thing, motorcycles are another. keep them separate. for all the right reasons, keep them separate.
this has to start with the sellers of oversize and illegal engines. the most popular engine being used right now is clearly designated as an "off road motorcycle" engine...need i say more? self-regulation of the supply ain't gonna happen. so it has to be the consumer and self-regulation that protects MB'ing in its' pure & legal form. hehe, THAT ain't gonna happen either, whether i'm nice or whether i'm belligerent, you know it's not gonna happen.
and that makes me boo-coo angry. why can't we have ONE good thing that isn't eventually tarnished by today's hooliganism?
another thing...if you're using a single-speed assist, and it's 50cc or under...if you're riding-right and obeying your local laws (even if they seem too restrictive)...then you're a "motorized-bicyclist" and i don't care what brand of assist you use.
but, remember this...character is also an issue...and GEBE has TONS of MBcharacter. that is why i'm biased towards them.
Anon,
Nice civil post! But although I must agree with you that no restrictions should be placed on innovation, as Augie has pointed out, the restrictions are already in place in most places! Most of the MB communities China bikes are illegal! And I saw plenty of childish behavior both on my site and that "other" forum towards Augie. The remark was appropriate in my personal opinion.
The other issue that I have with the MB community at large is the fascination with the motor cycle look. Me thinks that a mid frame mount with a China motor places a lot of stress on the ordinary bike frame that it was not intended to handle and hence causing a huge safety issue in my opinion. I am no engineer and can not say exactly how much stress a mid framed bike frame can handle. My opinion is that those that choose to mount this way with an over sized engine need a super strong steel frameset. Few of these exist for a good price in the current market.
I have never seen another motored biker on the road and law enforcement simply does not pay attention to me in the slightest for now. And since I am a hard core commuter used to 200 plus miles per galleon I hope that things stay as they are.
Kevin
"So Augi and Kevin I ask of you this, instead of harshly judging anyone or anything whom doesn't fit within your amazingly narrow and inconsistent definition of what does or does not constitute a proper motorized bicycle, condemning anyone whom dares to exceed what you have decided to be enough despite the fact it may even be legal in their state, why not lobby for logical, practical, uniform and even enforceable laws?"
Anon,
You are already judged by the state of Wisconsin to be illegal! I am not judging you!
I could post on any of a number of pure cycling message boards about a motor cycle look alike power assist bike and they would judge you most harshly! The cry would be ban them and hang them high to the nearest light pole!
In cycling culture you simply do not understand what you are messing with!
Augie's message is simply a common sense one and one that I totally agree with and my blog as always is just personal opinion. Its not about getting huge popularity but pointing out what I think is right in the long run.
You are free to post here and the debate is good for all.
Kevin
"These restrictions so lauded by Augi and yourself make very little sense to anyone with even the slightest mechanical aptitude, so it's of little surprise they're so often ignored by even those mature enough to otherwise be law abiding citizens. Speed limits are reasonable and fair, but to attempt to restrict a vehicle's ability (as not to be ABLE to exceed 20/30MPH) is simply ludicrous and can be violated by any motorized bicycle, including your much touted "Golden Eagle" by your own admission. Even limitations based on displacement are an example of the lawmaker's naivety, the vast differences between the various engines designs and quality making such meaningless. The 66cc "Happy Times" while technically illegal in some states haven't even a fraction of the power a "legal" 49cc Franco Morini engine has as a prime example."
Anon,
It is agreed that the powers that be are a bunch of morons. But the laws are in place now in all 50 states that define what a bicycle is or is not and what a motorized bicycle is or is not. You can argue with this all you want but its a fact. And further, if your sport gains traction what will ya all do when law enforcement starts handing out the big tickets for an illegal bike?
This is a perfect storm coming your way baby.
My motor is on a rack and is 33.5 cc and I look like a regular cyclist and will fall under the radar.
Kevin
"The 66cc "Happy Times" while technically illegal in some states haven't even a fraction of the power a "legal" 49cc Franco Morini engine has as a prime example."
Anon,
Well you have your answer! The smart motored biker that wants to ride fast and legal would by a Morini engine simple as that Anon.
Its kind of like NASCAR and the auto racing thing. Their are all kinds of restrictions and even in bicycle racing like the 1934 ban on recumbents in professional races.
And if the state has mandated certain things and the market has responded lets discuss those issues....
Kevin
"If nothing else it's a grave tactical error, alienating those that would otherwise be stout supporters of the cause. The broad generalities of your concerns I find little to disagree with yet the specifics of your stated arguments are rife with logical fallacies, personal bias, even megalomania. While you've valid points, your methodology is seriously flawed as you've targeted the wrong side of the issue."
Anon,
Seriously? The wrong side of the issue here? I mean the right to ride down the focking road on a motorized bike?
The state has already mandated the standard my friend. You are with it or will be targeted by law enforcement that is hungry for revenue to be ticked! It is really that simple. They have not figured it out yet but they certianly will. I mean they will measure your wang for displacement to get a buck out of you!
Kevin
while at one time i felt i was promoting the Motorsport thru my support, demonstrating what a motor-assisted-bicycle can achieve mechanically and socially, i now feel as if all i'm doing by sending the curious to the MBforums is selling Happy Times. i'd rather just have a personal site where a few pics and notes say it all, plus i've learned it's way easier than asking people to crawl thru the hash that the forums have become. i wasn't banned, i simply used an effective method to force myself to withdraw. i didn't tell them to delete the existing topics, they did that to "punish" me, but all they did was punish the members who are a part of those stories. and other things, too...childish things...hypocritcal indeed.
kevin said: "They have not figured it out yet but they certianly will."
spot-on!
when i see some NOOB hit the forums, and brag "i know my engine is oversize, but how's the lawman to know any better?"
i say "well, if i was LEA, i'd read the MBforums...where you tell me who, where, and what...with pictures...you idjut."
pushing, or downright thumbing your nose at, the existing restrictions on motor-assisted-bicycles is NOT the way to raise them. showing that MB'ing is a viable means of transportation, with many positive benefits, populated by mature respectful individuals, IS. maybe, but keep in mind there is a legal definition already in place for bikes with oversize engines and higher speeds..."motorcycle."
but, alas...too many are treating our class of vehicle like pocketbikes...and everyone knows what happened to them.
and here's a nut to chew on, one hardly anyone acknowledges: we share the road with people who HAVE to document themselves, their vehicle, AND carry proof of personal financially responsibility for each other. why do they HAVE to do that? because, they would NOT on their own...and now they have laws. and here "we" come, flaunting and taunting...those people are voters & taxpayers...and there are a LOT of them.
hello? anybody home?
Anon,
Did a search on that Morini engine and its the leader in the "mini" motorcycle industry. Don't have a problem with it but am a bit mystified about this interest in making a bicycle into a motor cycle. I am sorry but I just do not get it!
This is the cultural rift that I am writing about and just simply am trying to understand.
Please enlighten me...
Kevin
Augie,
Your comment on this blog post was kind of mind blowing to me and shows what I am trying to write about in a constructive manor.
"Hello is anybody home" just about sums it up!
Over on that MB forum you have folks like me wading through a sea of bullshit to get to some truth.
I do not have all the answers nor do I propose that anybody does but, I think that there has to be some objectivity to the discussion. I think that the MB forum is childish and in need of a spanking and in a total need of a wake up call to what could happen to your industry in a heart beat!
Me thinks that on this blog is a whole bunch of relevant truth posted if you care to read up on it!
I have no axe to grind nor no financial interest in any motored bike company. I am just happy with what I have found. Simple as that. I am just an outsider looking in and reporting on what I have found about this new activity in cycling and I simply find it really interesting...
Kevin
Apparently a few reminders are needed.
Forums and the internet are international, thus your assertions regarding the "legality" of motorized bicycles limited to your particular home state are inappropriate. Even if confined to the United States, a myopic view to say the least, each and every state has it's own often contradictory laws, ranging from banned outright to none at all.
I stand by my previous statements, that if your concern is truly advocating motorized bicycles as an alternate or primary means of transportation then refrain from attacking the one group that would support you, opening your mind to the possibility that we've similar interests, beliefs and goals. That your fellow enthusiast is NOT your enemy no matter what they ride, that setting aside our differences and enjoying the activity for what it is is far more important than deciphering and interpreting absolutely nonsensical and conflicting local laws to suit your brand preference alone.
For example, should ALL motor vehicles be completely outlawed save for one very specific engine type, capability & displacement simply because they are ABLE to exceed current legal limitations such as posted speed limits?
Such illogical double standards assume the irresponsibility of all, a classic case of guilt before innocence. I'm more than willing to obey posted speed limits, offended that simply because I could speed, that would be penalized for that ability regardless if I actually did or not.
It's this sheer insanity that's hampering the expansion of this activity, making criminals out of those that would do no more than strap a motor to their bike. Address THIS issue, lobby for logical and practical laws to be enforced only IF they're broken, hold the individual accountable for their actions instead of en masse presumed guilt and great advancements lay in wait for all.
It's unlikely true, but is there any chance that they current nonsensical and enforceable laws are in place not to protect the individual nor the populace, but vehicular manufacturers? I seem to recall there's at least one state that forbids ANY motorized bicycle save from those offered complete by "authorized manufacturers" making even the GEBE system outlawed?
Shaky "conspiracy theory" without a doubt, nevertheless interesting food for thought.
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